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Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in andIamdisappointed, sorta...

Subject: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in andIamdisappointed, sorta...
From: brianm at earendel.org (Brian McGarvey)
Date: Thu Oct 2 19:40:44 2003
In-reply-to: <002701c3893d$9ccae9a0$4b5bf7a5@home>
References: <20031002214446.87848.qmail@web80211.mail.yahoo.com><002701c3893d$9ccae9a0$4b5bf7a5@home>
well just goes to show that you should finish reading the list before 
injecting your two freaking cents...
brian


On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, Dan Bubb wrote:

> You can't use the ABA distributor because it has only one window, instead of
> four, in the hall sensor trigger. The ABA distributor is really a cam
> position sensor, it triggers only once every two engine revolutions(i.e. it
> lets the ECU know the next ignition event is #1). The ABA gets it's ignition
> timing from a multi tooth wheel just inboard of the 5th main bearing on the
> crankshaft.
> The 3A is obviously conventional if you're using it, but it's no big deal to
> use the RD/HT distributor with the TT adapter.
> Dan
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Bureau <txrocco@sbcglobal.net>
> To: Mark <mardak@cogeco.ca>; 'Rob Calderwood' <robcalderwood1@charter.net>;
> '_Scirocco Mailing List' <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:44 PM
> Subject: RE: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and
> Iamdisappointed, sorta...
> 
> 
> > you can use tha BA Adfistributor for the ABA engine, and why not?
> > I am using the 3a Distributor for my 3a/jh hybrid without a problem..
> >
> >
> > Mark <mardak@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> > You can't use the ABA distributor. IMHO the best solution is to buy a
> > new distributor from Techtonics especially for this swap. I went this
> > route and don't regret it one bit...
> >
> > Mark.
> > 80 S
> > 81 S ABA/JH/4K
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org [mailto:scirocco-l-
> > > bounces@scirocco.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Bureau
> > > Sent: October 2, 2003 4:35 PM
> > > To: Rob Calderwood; _Scirocco Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I
> > > amdisappointed, sorta...
> > >
> > > dont waste time with the TT JH-> 3a distributor plate its not worth it
> > ,
> > > get a 3a/aba distributor (you will not regret it I swear it on my
> > parents
> > > head)
> > >
> > > I had trouble like no one when I did the JH distributor with adaptor
> > > plate, slap a aba distributor and you will have a smooth operating
> > engine.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob Calderwood wrote:
> > > Hi guys, I have been reading this discussion with great interest since
> > I
> > > have an ABA swap in the works for my '85 8V Scirocco. I am keeping my
> > JH
> > > head and plan on converting to KS ignition. I purchased the conversion
> > > parts
> > > for plugging the extra holes in the block and the distributor gear
> > from
> > > TT,
> > > but have not bought the KS parts yet. I have looked around the web
> > > including
> > > the DriversFound site, but I am not totally clear on all the parts I
> > need:
> > >
> > > CIS-E distributor
> > > Knock Senor
> > > KS Control Unit
> > > Wiring
> > > TB Switch
> > >
> > > I think I keep my old CIS control box, but not sure.
> > > Any other sources on this subject?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dan Bubb"
> > > To: "Mike Potter"
> > > ; "Patrick Bureau"
> > > ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:15 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > >
> > >
> > > > Back in the day when I had CIS I just set the CIS WOT switch right
> > on
> > > top
> > > of
> > > > the KS WOT switch. Maybe a dumb way to do it but it worked.
> > > > Strangely enough the weight of that additional little switch was
> > enough
> > > to
> > > > break the switch bracket several times before I welded a 1/4" thick
> > bar
> > > > across it. It was ugly! Big old heavy bracket and a bunch of switch
> > > wires.
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Mike Potter"
> > >
> > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "Patrick Bureau"
> > > > ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> > >
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:56 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Dan, I was going to suggest the same thing. That's how mine is
> > wired.
> > > Got
> > > > > to do it as the CIS-E Switches send a positive signal but the
> > older
> > > Lamda
> > > > > control units need a ground to go WOT. Switch the current(via
> > relay) &
> > > > your
> > > > > in biz!
> > > > >
> > > > > Patrick, If I had a head or $800 to spare I'd hand it over....If
> > you
> > > have
> > > > > one in the works it will help out. Those motors need it to
> > breathe.
> > > Still
> > > > > that thing it a torque monster! 118lbs of torque!...my 1.8 8v is
> > only
> > > > > getting 111.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck...
> > > > >
> > > > > ****When replying please copy in any original text that we have
> > been
> > > > > previously discussing, Thank you!***
> > > > > Mike Potter
> > > > > Virtual World Parts Inc.
> > > > > Sales@parts4vws.com
> > > > > 909-694-8600x103
> > > > > 888-389-7278x103
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
> > > > > [mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Dan Bubb
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:27 AM
> > > > > To: Patrick Bureau; _Scirocco Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, they aren't used by the KS ignition, but the CIS ecu still
> > needs
> > > > them.
> > > > > Do me a huge favor.
> > > > > Splice into the voilet wire that runs from the KS WOT switch to
> > pin 8
> > > on
> > > > the
> > > > > KS ecu. This wire should have 12V when the switch is tripped. Run
> > the
> > > wire
> > > > > from the splice to a small relay. Connect it to the relay coil.
> > Ground
> > > the
> > > > > other side of the relay coil. Now take the two wires that used to
> > go
> > > to
> > > > the
> > > > > old WOT switch and connect them to the two contacts on the relay
> > that
> > > are
> > > > > shorted when the relay is activated.
> > > > > shouldn't take you more than 10 minutes to rig this up for a quick
> > > test.
> > > > > Or better yet, just take the two wires that used to go to the old
> > WOT
> > > > > switch. Short them together. With the engine idling the idle
> > should
> > > > improve
> > > > > slightly when they are shorted. Anyway, short them together and go
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > test drive and see if the engine has more power.
> > > > > If that works rig up the relay.
> > > > > LMK
> > > > > Dan
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Patrick Bureau
> > > > > To: Dan Bubb ; _Scirocco Mailing List
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:10 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > no where.
> > > > > patched and laying in tray, I assumed these whe no longer used by
> > the
> > > > ecu
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan Bubb wrote:
> > > > > OK. That addresses the KS ignition switches.
> > > > > What about the wires that went to the WOT switch that was on your
> > > car
> > > > > before
> > > > > you swapped to the Audi 5000 throttle body?
> > > > > Where are they connected?
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Patrick Bureau"
> > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:55 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I used this diagram install the knock box and switches to my car
> > > > > >
> > > > > htm>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan Bubb wrote:
> > > > > > So, Patrick!
> > > > > > What exactly did you do with the wires that ran to the CIS WOT
> > > > switch
> > > > > when
> > > > > > you did your conversion and added the KS ignition?
> > > > > > Dan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau"
> > > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:13 PM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mr Potter : headwork... yes I know... got 800$ to spare ? hehe
> > I
> > > > am
> > > > > > working
> > > > > > > on saving the cash for a full blow reworked head (ie: racing
> > > > specs)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dan: as always Appreciate your inputs (even if we diagree
> > about
> > > > that
> > > > > > 8v/16v
> > > > > > > thing eheh)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. the TB is audi5000, I use CIS-Lambda with 16v Knock
> > > sensor/box,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > included the 16v TB switches setup (2 switches),you may be on
> > to
> > > > > somthing
> > > > > > > about the fuel mix, (It hink it may be fuel pressure and wil
> > > check
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > soon), but enrichment switch.. humm. wil have to test the
> > > switches
> > > > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > one failed on me. good point
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. the fuel/air mix is not 15:1 , but close (14.8:1 average)
> > and
> > > I
> > > > > see
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > point.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. I am working on geting a head reworked, as for springs, if
> > I
> > > > did
> > > > > go
> > > > > > > 268-272 cam would I need to change for HD ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > MSN:ATSGTX@hotmail.com |YAHOO:ATSGTX@yahoo.com
> > > > > > > ICQ:32918816 |AIM:Texasscirocco
> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > =>-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > =>From: Dan Bubb [mailto:jdbubb@ix.netcom.com]
> > > > > > > =>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:18 PM
> > > > > > > =>To: ATS - Patrick Bureau; _Scirocco Mailing List
> > > > > > > =>Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed,
> > sorta...
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>Personally, I thought you'd be 115-118 HP so this is a
> > > suprise!
> > > > > > > =>There's really no way to compare my engine to yours because
> > of
> > > > > > > =>the Haltech,
> > > > > > > =>but I still have some input (don't I always!)
> > > > > > > =>A week ago I was going to suggest you include A/F ratio in
> > > your
> > > > > > > =>runs, but I
> > > > > > > =>see you have. There's a huge clue right there! Dead on 15:1
> > > > across
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > =>board! CIS is awesome it can hold stoichometric so
> > accurately!
> > > > > > > =>Now, (this is Dan the Parent!) how many times did I give
> > input
> > > > on
> > > > > > > =>setting up
> > > > > > > =>your CIS WOT switch???? If you're running at 15:1 then your
> > > > switch
> > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > =>triggering or there is some problem with the wiring or
> > > > something.
> > > > > Your
> > > > > > > =>engine is constantly running closed loop. With the switch
> > it'd
> > > > go
> > > > > > > =>open loop
> > > > > > > =>and drop to mid 13:1 (I presume). Now we talked briefly
> > about
> > > > > > > =>this at Cincy,
> > > > > > > =>but the KS ignition WOT switch is not the CIS WOT switch and
> > > as
> > > > > far as
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > =>know they don't have any interconnection, but whatever, your
> > > CIS
> > > > > > > =>WOT switch
> > > > > > > =>is clearly not working or connected.
> > > > > > > =>So, step one is get the frigging WOT switch wired and
> > working.
> > > I
> > > > > > > =>bet that'd
> > > > > > > =>give you 5-10 HP right there.
> > > > > > > =>The next items that come to mind are:
> > > > > > > =>1) head, the stock GTI head just isn't that high flow. You
> > > need
> > > > a
> > > > > ported
> > > > > > > =>head to start making big power with the 8V (one friggen
> > smart
> > > > > > > =>crack from the
> > > > > > > =>16V guys! Just one!). Not sure if a cam will do much without
> > > the
> > > > > > > =>head work.
> > > > > > > =>My recollection (this is Dan the old fart speaking) when I
> > was
> > > > > running
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > =>stock head going to a bigger cam with the 2.0 just gutted
> > the
> > > > > bottom
> > > > > end
> > > > > > > =>without adding anything to the top. I have no objective data
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > butt
> > > > > > > =>dyno is a notorious lier, so take that as you wish.
> > > > > > > =>2) cam. The G grind is a good mild cam. You want an 8V to
> > make
> > > > > power
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > =>need something that'll make your idle good and lumpy. 272,
> > > 280!
> > > > > > > =>They do hurt
> > > > > > > =>the bottom end, but the 2.0 can loose some bottom end and
> > > still
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > =>terrific off the line acceleration.
> > > > > > > =>3)why the hell are you running a 16V KS box? A 16V isn't an
> > 8V
> > > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > =>ignition curve is undoubtedly different. Despite your mods I
> > > > think
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > =>should be running an 8V KS box. Just my opinion.
> > > > > > > =>My exhaust, flywheel, fuel pumps, CR are the substantially
> > the
> > > > > > > =>same as yours
> > > > > > > =>and they support alot more HP so those aren't a big issue
> > for
> > > > > upgrade.
> > > > > > > =>Maybe I'll think of more later.
> > > > > > > =>I bet you could work out the CIS WOT switch before you go to
> > > > work
> > > > > > > =>tomorrow.
> > > > > > > =>There's a noticable difference!
> > > > > > > =>HTH!
> > > > > > > =>Dan
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > =>From: ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > > > > > =>To: _Scirocco Mailing List
> > > > > > > =>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:01 PM
> > > > > > > =>Subject: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>
> > > > > > > =>> alright after all my work here is the results I got for my
> > > > > 8v....
> > > > > > > =>>
> > > > > > > =>> Best run 97.9HP @ 5200 RPM with 118.9 ft torque @ 3100
> > RPM,
> > > > > dwell
> > > > > set
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > =>60'
> > > > > > > =>> and timing at 14' idle, 28' @ 3000 rpm.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> > > > > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
> > > > > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > >
> > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> > > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
> > > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> >
> >
> > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
> > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Scirocco-l mailing list
> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> 

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
Brian 
88 16v $2004 GRM challenge car http://www.grmotorsports.com
84 0v Next years car? mid engine... maybe we'll see
82 0v Black 16v kit --parts
82 2.0L Topless bunny -- Knock Ignition and bigger clutch. next.
90 90q20v doing daily driver duty. 
91 VFR750F everybody needs a 11-12 sec vehicle.

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Follow-Ups:
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References:
- Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and Iamdisappointed, sorta...
  - From: txrocco at sbcglobal.net (Patrick Bureau)
- Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in andIamdisappointed, sorta...
  - From: jdbubb at ix.netcom.com (Dan Bubb)
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