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Water pump....questions
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Good luck, I hear ya. My car has to go from not being driven for almost 3 weeks to ready to go 9hrs on Monday. I have a lurking fear that I'm going to find out that it's not the alt that's the problem but something else. I'm ignoring it though.
Dan
Rhett Farnum <rocco_crossing@hotmail.com> wrote:
HYSTERESIS!!!! There its been said.
Sorry, long night too much coffee @ the coooffee house.
GOOOOOD NIGHT!! I have to get my alternator and tierod done by 4pm tomaro...
well later today I gueeess.blah night all
Peace Out,
Rhett
Rocco_crossing
'83 Rocco (autocross ready, 20 days till season opener)
'92 Olds Cutlass Ciera (DD)
>From: Haygood
>Reply-To: haygood@aemail4u.com
>To: "T. Reed" ,Rhett Farnum
>
>CC: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
>Subject: Re: Water pump....questions
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:33:02 -0800 (PST)
>
>Let me try to simplify. You know how if you want a drill motor to do more
>mechanical work you have to give it more electricity, right? Well, this is
>the same in reverse. If you want more electricity, you have to put more
>mecahnical work into the motor/alternator. So it's still mushy because I
>just referred to an alternator as a type of motor, but then that's kinda
>the point. They all be the same on some crude level.
>
>OK, so I tried. The next challenge is for someone to work the word
>hysteresis into the conversation. Geesh. Good night all!
>
>BH
>
>--- "T. Reed" wrote:
> >Actually, this isn't correct. The more electrical stuff you connect to an
> >alternator, the harder you have to work to turn the pulley. In a
>-greatly-
> >simplified manner, think about the alternator coils as being an
> >electromagnet whose strength is proportional to the electrical load
> >connected to it. Then think of the shaft/pulley as being another magnet
> >of opposite polarity that is pushing away from the first magnet as it
> >spins around. It takes more force to spin the shaft and "overcome" that
> >repulsion when you have less resistance in the electrical circuit
> >connected to the electromagnet.
> >
> >If you've ever played with an electric motor and a battery, you would
>know
> >that if you connect the power and get the motor up to speed then remove
> >power, the motor takes a second or two to spin down. If you want it to
> >stop immediately, all you have to do is short the two terminals of the
> >motor. This creates "infinite" current between the terminals, exerting a
> >strong opposing force to the permanent magnet in the electric motor.
> >
> >Of course, an alternator isn't 100% effecient, so there is always some
> >resistance to turning even when there is an open circuit between the two
> >terminals. Not to mention bearing friction, rotating mass, etc.
> >
> >Okay, so maybe this isn't the clearest explanation possible but its the
> >best I could muster after being brainwashed by college physics textbooks
> >to speak in terms of mathematical.. stuff. I'm sorry.. my brain is
> >literally mush.
> >
> >Perhaps the best way to explain this would be simply conservation of
> >energy. If you're making energy, it has to go somewhere, right?
> >Disconnecting the electrical load means it has no where to go. The heat
> >explanation doesn't fly either because there is no current flowing
>through
> >an open circuit. But even if it did, a 90A alternator making 14v (lets
> >simplify this model by pretending there is no regulator) spinning full
> >bore would produce 1260 watts of power. If you've ever touched a 100 watt
> >light bulb when it was on you would know how hot 100 watts is, and thats
> >not even 100 watts because heat is only produced from the "waste" power
> >of an inefficient light bulb. You can't tell me for a minute that 1.26
> >kilowatts are being dissipated as heat.. the alternator case would be red
> >hot.
> >
> >-Toby
> >
> >On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Rhett Farnum wrote:
> >
> >> If your alt was still spinning wouldn't that still cause friction and
>pull
> >> from your HP anyways? I mean if you turn the alternator off all you are
> >> doing is opening the external circuit, you wouldn't really be lessening
>the
> >> friction from the alt because it would still be turning and makeing
>energy,
> >> it just wouldn't be pushing it into the entire electrical system.
> >>
> >> Disclaimer: this is an amature electrical student talking, I am not
>really
> >> knowledgable on the pulley end of things but electrical is a diff.
>story so
> >> this is how *I* see it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Peace Out,
> >> Rhett
> >> Rocco_crossing
> >> '83 Rocco (autocross ready, 20 days till season opener)
> >> '92 Olds Cutlass Ciera (DD)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: frank
> >> >To: ATS - Patrick Bureau
> >> >CC: Scirocco Mailing List
> >> >Subject: Re: Water pump....questions
> >> >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:34:50 -0800 (PST)
> >> >
> >> >Patrick, On a street driven car you would probley want
> >> >to use a underdrive pulley on the crank & mabey a
> >> >larger one on the water & powersteering pumps, A good
> >> >machine shop could turn these down out of
> >> >aluminum.(Ron should know more about that)
> >> >You could also install a switch that will cutout the
> >> >alternator while racing, just besure to switch it back
> >> >on for normal driving
> >> >Good Luck,FJ
> >> >--- ATS - Patrick Bureau
> >> >wrote:
> >> > > Working on my 2L project and thinking...could it be
> >> > > possible to not install
> >> > > the pulley driven Water pump and install a type of
> >> > > electrical water pump
> >> > > instead and gain some HP?
> >> > > I have been obviously reading too many racing
> >> > > catalogues, I am getting
> >> > > ideas, but no real clue what type would electrical
> >> > > driven (yeah I can hear
> >> > > the gremlins already getting ready to attack this
> >> > > thing) water pump ?
> >> > >
> >> > > any one have any ideas on this?
> >> > >
> >> > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> >> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> >> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >=====
> >> >Later, F Jones
> >> > 87 16V Scirocco
> >> >
> >> >__________________________________________________
> >> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >> >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> >> >http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Scirocco-l mailing list
> >> >Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> >> >http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> >>
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> >> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Scirocco-l mailing list
> >> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> >> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Scirocco-l mailing list
> >Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> >http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
>
>_____________________________________________________________
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<P>Good luck, I hear ya. My car has to go from not being driven for almost 3 weeks to ready to go 9hrs on Monday. I have a lurking fear that I'm going to find out that it's not the alt that's the problem but something else. I'm ignoring it though.
<P>Dan
<P> <B><I>Rhett Farnum <rocco_crossing@hotmail.com></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>HYSTERESIS!!!! There its been said.<BR><BR>Sorry, long night too much coffee @ the coooffee house.<BR><BR>GOOOOOD NIGHT!! I have to get my alternator and tierod done by 4pm tomaro... <BR>well later today I gueeess.blah night all<BR><BR>Peace Out,<BR>Rhett<BR>Rocco_crossing<BR>'83 Rocco (autocross ready, 20 days till season opener)<BR>'92 Olds Cutlass Ciera (DD)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>From: Haygood <HAYGOOD@AEMAIL4U.COM><BR>>Reply-To: haygood@aemail4u.com<BR>>To: "T. Reed" <TREED2@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>,Rhett Farnum <BR>><ROCCO_CROSSING@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>>CC: scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>>Subject: Re: Water pump....questions<BR>>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:33:02 -0800 (PST)<BR>><BR>>Let me try to simplify. You know how if you want a drill motor to do more <BR>>mechanical work you have to give it more electricity, right? Well, this is <BR>>the same in reverse. If you want more electricity, you have to put more <BR>>mecahnical work into the motor/alternator. So it's still mushy because I <BR>>just referred to an alternator as a type of motor, but then that's kinda <BR>>the point. They all be the same on some crude level.<BR>><BR>>OK, so I tried. The next challenge is for someone to work the word <BR>>hysteresis into the conversation. Geesh. Good night all!<BR>><BR>>BH<BR>><BR>>--- "T. Reed" <TREED2@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>wrote:<BR>> >Actually, this isn't correct. The more electrical stuff you connect to an<BR>> >alternator, the harder you have to work to turn the pulley. In a <BR>>-greatly-<BR>> >simplified manner, think about the alternator coils as being an<BR>> >electromagnet whose strength is proportional to the electrical load<BR>> >connected to it. Then think of the shaft/pulley as being another magnet<BR>> >of opposite polarity that is pushing away from the first magnet as it<BR>> >spins around. It takes more force to spin the shaft and "overcome" that<BR>> >repulsion when you have less resistance in the electrical circuit<BR>> >connected to the electromagnet.<BR>> ><BR>> >If you've ever played with an electric motor and a battery, you would <BR>>know<BR>> >that if you connect the power and get the motor up to speed then remove<BR>> >power, the motor takes a second or two to spin down. If you want it to<BR>> >stop immediately, all you have to do is short the two terminals of the<BR>> >motor. This creates "infinite" current between the terminals, exerting a<BR>> >strong opposing force to the permanent magnet in the electric motor.<BR>> ><BR>> >Of course, an alternator isn't 100% effecient, so there is always some<BR>> >resistance to turning even when there is an open circuit between the two<BR>> >terminals. Not to mention bearing friction, rotating mass, etc.<BR>> ><BR>> >Okay, so maybe this isn't the clearest explanation possible but its the<BR>> >best I could muster after being brainwashed by college physics textbooks<BR>> >to speak in terms of mathematical.. stuff. I'm sorry.. my brain is<BR>> >literally mush.<BR>> ><BR>> >Perhaps the best way to explain this would be simply conservation of<BR>> >energy. If you're making energy, it has to go somewhere, right?<BR>> >Disconnecting the electrical load means it has no where to go. The heat<BR>> >explanation doesn't fly either because there is no current flowing <BR>>through<BR>> >an open circuit. But even if it did, a 90A alternator making 14v (lets<BR>> >simplify this model by pretending there is no regulator) spinning full<BR>> >bore would produce 1260 watts of power. If you've ever touched a 100 watt<BR>> >light bulb when it was on you would know how hot 100 watts is, and thats<BR>> >not even 100 watts because heat is only produced from the "waste" power<BR>> >of an inefficient light bulb. You can't tell me for a minute that 1.26<BR>> >kilowatts are being dissipated as heat.. the alternator case would be red<BR>> >hot.<BR>> ><BR>> >-Toby<BR>> ><BR>> >On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Rhett Farnum wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >> If your alt was still spinning wouldn't that still cause friction and <BR>>pull<BR>> >> from your HP anyways? I mean if you turn the alternator off all you are<BR>> >> doing is opening the external circuit, you wouldn't really be lessening <BR>>the<BR>> >> friction from the alt because it would still be turning and makeing <BR>>energy,<BR>> >> it just wouldn't be pushing it into the entire electrical system.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Disclaimer: this is an amature electrical student talking, I am not <BR>>really<BR>> >> knowledgable on the pulley end of things but electrical is a diff. <BR>>story so<BR>> >> this is how *I* see it.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Peace Out,<BR>> >> Rhett<BR>> >> Rocco_crossing<BR>> >> '83 Rocco (autocross ready, 20 days till season opener)<BR>> >> '92 Olds Cutlass Ciera (DD)<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> >From: frank <FISH26133@YAHOO.COM><BR>> >> >To: ATS - Patrick Bureau <TXROCCO@SBCGLOBAL.NET><BR>> >> >CC: Scirocco Mailing List <SCIROCCO-L@SCIROCCO.ORG><BR>> >> >Subject: Re: Water pump....questions<BR>> >> >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:34:50 -0800 (PST)<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> >Patrick, On a street driven car you would probley want<BR>> >> >to use a underdrive pulley on the crank & mabey a<BR>> >> >larger one on the water & powersteering pumps, A good<BR>> >> >machine shop could turn these down out of<BR>> >> >aluminum.(Ron should know more about that)<BR>> >> >You could also install a switch that will cutout the<BR>> >> >alternator while racing, just besure to switch it back<BR>> >> >on for normal driving<BR>> >> >Good Luck,FJ<BR>> >> >--- ATS - Patrick Bureau <TXROCCO@SBCGLOBAL.NET><BR>> >> >wrote:<BR>> >> > > Working on my 2L project and thinking...could it be<BR>> >> > > possible to not install<BR>> >> > > the pulley driven Water pump and install a type of<BR>> >> > > electrical water pump<BR>> >> > > instead and gain some HP?<BR>> >> > > I have been obviously reading too many racing<BR>> >> > > catalogues, I am getting<BR>> >> > > ideas, but no real clue what type would electrical<BR>> >> > > driven (yeah I can hear<BR>> >> > > the gremlins already getting ready to attack this<BR>> >> > > thing) water pump ?<BR>> >> > ><BR>> >> > > any one have any ideas on this?<BR>> >> > ><BR>> >> > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net<BR>> >> > ><BR>> >> > ><BR>> >> > > _______________________________________________<BR>> >> > > Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>> >> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>> >> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> ><BR>> >> >=====<BR>> >> >Later, F Jones<BR>> >> > 87 16V Scirocco<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> >__________________________________________________<BR>> >> >Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> >> >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more<BR>> >> >http://taxes.yahoo.com/<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> >_______________________________________________<BR>> >> >Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>> >> >Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>> >> >http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> _________________________________________________________________<BR>> >> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online<BR>> >> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> _______________________________________________<BR>> >> Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>> >> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>> >> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l<BR>> >><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >_______________________________________________<BR>> >Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>> >Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>> >http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l<BR>><BR>>_____________________________________________________________<BR>>!!!!FAST, FREE AND HOT!!!!<BR>>for the best free email site on the web<BR>>http://www.aemail4u.com<BR>><BR>>_____________________________________________________________<BR>>Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No <BR>>Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag<BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>>Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>>http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online <BR>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l</BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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