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Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

Subject: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
From: mkii@nycap.rr.com (Josh Able)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:23:50 -0400
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33L2.0206111423330.29522-100000@earendel.org>
Well, it wasn't the shop that did the work, that we dynoed at.

the corrected number came out after he put in the cars weight.


Josh Able

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian McGarvey" <brianm@earendel.org>
To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
Cc: <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors


> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Josh Able wrote:
>
> > That's the only thing I took a photo of.
> >
> > why?
> well because you see correction factors generally manipulate the actual
> result to something else. that should be the estimated HP/torque produced
> at the flywheel. The more interesting result is the actual at the wheel.
> Raw and unmanipulated. Esp if this was the "shop" that you had it done at.
> id cruise on over to another shop w/ a dynoject(tm) dyno and have the BHP
> done.
> IMHO.
> BTW. have somebody more knowledgeble than me check your water pump
> belt setup. it was the only one that was set up on a V-belt i have no idea
> if that is the way it is supposed to be. Id hate to see you trash your
> motor cause a V-belt wasnt tight enough. And no we didnt mess with the
> tension on it. it remained the same. it uses your PS (IIRC) to tension the
> belt. and its really small.
>
> brian
> 2.0L unknown HP/torque 8v. <-- getting it dyno'd at waterfest.
>
>
>  >
> > Josh Able
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian McGarvey" <brianm@earendel.org>
> > To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> > Cc: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>;
<scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Josh.
> > > The data that is up on that screen is Corrected data. What does the
Raw,
> > > at the wheel chart look like?
> > > brian
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Josh Able wrote:
> > >
> > > > http://users.tunerswanted.org/JoshmkII/dyno.jpg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Josh Able
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> > > > To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:51 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > post it :)
> > > > >
> > > > > ==========================================
> > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > > > 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> > > > > 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> > > > > Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =>-----Original Message-----
> > > > > =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> > > > > =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> > > > > =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:38 AM
> > > > > =>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>and I have the chart to prove it. :P
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>Josh Able
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>----- Original Message -----
> > > > > =>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> > > > > =>To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > > =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
> > > > > =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>
> > > > > =>> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves ..
(GRIN)
> > > > > =>> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
> > > > > =>> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
> > > > > =>> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
> > > > > =>>
> > > > > =>> ==========================================
> > > > > =>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > > > =>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> > > > > =>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> > > > > =>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> > > > > =>>
> > > > > =>>
> > > > > =>> =>-----Original Message-----
> > > > > =>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> > > > > =>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> > > > > =>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
> > > > > =>> =>To: Scott F. Williams
> > > > > =>> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > =>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>31 pound = 310cc
> > > > > =>> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these
and
> > > > > =>> =>produce 350ish
> > > > > =>> =>hp.
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>These are larger than stock.
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>Josh Able
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>----- Original Message -----
> > > > > =>> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> > > > > =>> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> > > > > =>> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > > =>> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
> > > > > =>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>
> > > > > =>> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310
many
> > > > times,
> > > > > =>> =>anything
> > > > > =>> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is
> > > > > =>needed to make
> > > > > =>> =>that
> > > > > =>> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability
> > > > > =>discussion. We're
> > > > > =>> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a
given
> > > > volume
> > > > > =>of
> > > > > =>> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
> > > > > =>> =>before, there are
> > > > > =>> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
> > > > > =>> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a
fuel
> > > > > =>> =>pressure of
> > > > > =>> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would
this
> > > > burst
> > > > > =>the
> > > > > =>> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to
bits,
> > > > > =>> =>destroy the
> > > > > =>> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the
> > engine
> > > > > =>> =>management
> > > > > =>> =>> system.
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
> > > > > =>> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of
> > fuel. In
> > > > > =>your
> > > > > =>> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle.
> > > > > =>However, the ECU
> > > > > =>> =>pulses
> > > > > =>> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how
you
> > get a
> > > > > =>> =>variable
> > > > > =>> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be
running
> > at
> > > > 5%
> > > > > =>duty
> > > > > =>> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100%
duty
> > > > cycle.
> > > > > =>> =>However,
> > > > > =>> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors
> > > > > =>beyond this
> > > > > =>> =>point
> > > > > =>> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel
at a
> > > > > =>> =>*dangerous*
> > > > > =>> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to
run
> > > > 480cc
> > > > > =>> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed
at
> > > > > =>> =>just 210hp! In
> > > > > =>> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc
are
> > > > > =>> =>the engine's
> > > > > =>> =>> *stock* injectors.
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> c) install bigger injectors
> > > > > =>> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
> > > > > =>> =>you're claiming
> > > > > =>> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is,
> > 1lb/hour =
> > > > > =>> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors,
then
> > > > > =>> =>the metric
> > > > > =>> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far
> > fetched!
> > > > :^)
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and
demand
> > > > > =>accurate
> > > > > =>> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply
incapable
> > of
> > > > > =>flowing
> > > > > =>> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you
on.
> > I
> > > > > =>totally
> > > > > =>> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power.
> > However,
> > > > the
> > > > > =>> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got
erroneous
> > > > > =>> =>flow capacity
> > > > > =>> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you
think.
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the
> > inflexible
> > > > laws
> > > > > =>of
> > > > > =>> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will
blow
> > the
> > > > > =>thing
> > > > > =>> =>to
> > > > > =>> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to
> > > > > =>ensure that
> > > > > =>> =>you've
> > > > > =>> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science,
> > paranoia, or
> > > > > =>> =>whatever.
> > > > > =>> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
> > > > > =>> =>> --
> > > > > =>> =>> Scott F. Williams
> > > > > =>> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
> > > > > =>> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> > > > > =>> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> > > > > =>> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> > > > > =>> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>> _______________________________________________
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> > > > > =>> =>>
> > > > > =>> =>
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