Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

[brianm@earendel.org (Brian McGarvey)]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Josh Able wrote:

> That's the only thing I took a photo of.
>
> why?
well because you see correction factors generally manipulate the actual
result to something else. that should be the estimated HP/torque produced
at the flywheel. The more interesting result is the actual at the wheel.
Raw and unmanipulated. Esp if this was the "shop" that you had it done at.
id cruise on over to another shop w/ a dynoject(tm) dyno and have the BHP
done.
IMHO.
BTW. have somebody more knowledgeble than me check your water pump
belt setup. it was the only one that was set up on a V-belt i have no idea
if that is the way it is supposed to be. Id hate to see you trash your
motor cause a V-belt wasnt tight enough. And no we didnt mess with the
tension on it. it remained the same. it uses your PS (IIRC) to tension the
belt. and its really small.

brian
2.0L unknown HP/torque 8v. <-- getting it dyno'd at waterfest.


 >
> Josh Able
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian McGarvey" <brianm@earendel.org>
> To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> Cc: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
>
>
> >
> > Josh.
> > The data that is up on that screen is Corrected data. What does the Raw,
> > at the wheel chart look like?
> > brian
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Josh Able wrote:
> >
> > > http://users.tunerswanted.org/JoshmkII/dyno.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Josh Able
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> > > To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:51 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > >
> > >
> > > > post it :)
> > > >
> > > > ==========================================
> > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > > 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> > > > 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> > > > Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =>-----Original Message-----
> > > > =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> > > > =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> > > > =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:38 AM
> > > > =>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > =>
> > > > =>
> > > > =>and I have the chart to prove it. :P
> > > > =>
> > > > =>
> > > > =>Josh Able
> > > > =>
> > > > =>----- Original Message -----
> > > > =>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> > > > =>To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
> > > > =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > =>
> > > > =>
> > > > =>> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
> > > > =>> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
> > > > =>> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
> > > > =>> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
> > > > =>>
> > > > =>> ==========================================
> > > > =>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > > =>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> > > > =>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> > > > =>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> > > > =>>
> > > > =>>
> > > > =>> =>-----Original Message-----
> > > > =>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> > > > =>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> > > > =>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
> > > > =>> =>To: Scott F. Williams
> > > > =>> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > =>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>31 pound = 310cc
> > > > =>> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
> > > > =>> =>produce 350ish
> > > > =>> =>hp.
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>These are larger than stock.
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>Josh Able
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>----- Original Message -----
> > > > =>> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> > > > =>> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> > > > =>> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > =>> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
> > > > =>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>
> > > > =>> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many
> > > times,
> > > > =>> =>anything
> > > > =>> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is
> > > > =>needed to make
> > > > =>> =>that
> > > > =>> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability
> > > > =>discussion. We're
> > > > =>> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given
> > > volume
> > > > =>of
> > > > =>> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
> > > > =>> =>before, there are
> > > > =>> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
> > > > =>> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
> > > > =>> =>pressure of
> > > > =>> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this
> > > burst
> > > > =>the
> > > > =>> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
> > > > =>> =>destroy the
> > > > =>> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the
> engine
> > > > =>> =>management
> > > > =>> =>> system.
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
> > > > =>> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of
> fuel. In
> > > > =>your
> > > > =>> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle.
> > > > =>However, the ECU
> > > > =>> =>pulses
> > > > =>> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how you
> get a
> > > > =>> =>variable
> > > > =>> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running
> at
> > > 5%
> > > > =>duty
> > > > =>> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty
> > > cycle.
> > > > =>> =>However,
> > > > =>> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors
> > > > =>beyond this
> > > > =>> =>point
> > > > =>> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
> > > > =>> =>*dangerous*
> > > > =>> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run
> > > 480cc
> > > > =>> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
> > > > =>> =>just 210hp! In
> > > > =>> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
> > > > =>> =>the engine's
> > > > =>> =>> *stock* injectors.
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> c) install bigger injectors
> > > > =>> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
> > > > =>> =>you're claiming
> > > > =>> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is,
> 1lb/hour =
> > > > =>> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
> > > > =>> =>the metric
> > > > =>> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far
> fetched!
> > > :^)
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
> > > > =>accurate
> > > > =>> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable
> of
> > > > =>flowing
> > > > =>> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on.
> I
> > > > =>totally
> > > > =>> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power.
> However,
> > > the
> > > > =>> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
> > > > =>> =>flow capacity
> > > > =>> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the
> inflexible
> > > laws
> > > > =>of
> > > > =>> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will blow
> the
> > > > =>thing
> > > > =>> =>to
> > > > =>> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to
> > > > =>ensure that
> > > > =>> =>you've
> > > > =>> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science,
> paranoia, or
> > > > =>> =>whatever.
> > > > =>> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
> > > > =>> =>> --
> > > > =>> =>> Scott F. Williams
> > > > =>> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
> > > > =>> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> > > > =>> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> > > > =>> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> > > > =>> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>>
> > > > =>> =>>
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