50mm intake, was Re: ebay link

[dswalterwi at gmail.com (Don Walter)]

I haven't really noticed a power difference like that.  The slapping usually
comes later after they wear in some so I hear.  Mine seems to have as much
power from the start as after 20 to 30 minutes.  As far as the ruffness when
first starting I'm running a Electromotive TEC 2 Engine management and right
now it takes a few minutes to get it to settle down but I make need to
fiddle with the TEC 2 settings.  The Centerforce clutch feels just like a
stock clutch, maybe a bit lighter, but with much more clamping force.  It is
disigned that way. I would never run a race clutch on a street machine.  The
SACHs may last for a bit but the extra horsepower will eventially take its
toll.  I burned up two of them before I switched to Centerforce.

Did you get 2 Cams or 1 from them.  If two then they are the Sport 16V set
other wise you must have gotten just a euro type grind which only replaces
the Intake cam.  Are you running the stock CIS-E?


On 7/10/06, Lance LaPrarie <sciroccojunky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hey Don,
>
> Yeah, I don't notice any piston slap at all. it is kind of lopey for a
> while though. Seems like it runs like a V8 for the first couple minutes.
> After it warms up it smooths out a little. I do notice that it takes about
> 15 minutes before the power actually shows up. It takes about 5 minutes for
> the temperture needle to center out. Though it doesn't seem to be warmed up
> that quick. I can really notice a difference between 5 minutes and 20
> minutes of driving. I wonder if that is the pistons not being heated enough.
> Don't know if you've noticed that on your car. I don't really mind the wait
> though. Want to make sure that it is totally warmed up before jumping on it.
> On the leak, I did notice a small leak under the timing belt cover. They
> fixed that lickety split and haven't had it since. I think mine are the
> Autotech Sport cams.
>
> What is driving your clutch like? I had a buddy that did a VR6 with a
> Vortec supercharger on his mark 3 gti. He had a race clutch that was either
> engaged or not. Not slipping or anything. I told the shop that did my car
> that it would be driven daily and didn't want to suffer through a race
> clutch. Is your's like that? My current clutch hasn't had any slipping
> issues at all. Seems to work really well.
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>  On 7/10/06, Don Walter <dswalterwi@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Yes it is very simliar to mine although my shop reccommended against
> > the knifing of the crank and said the money spent would be better used else
> > where.  I have WiseCo (Owner of JE pistons) forged pistons custom designed
> > and they are the only ones of their kind out there right now because they
> > did not have an off the shelf design yet, they should by now though.  I went
> > with them because they have the wrist pin offset like the stock pistons do
> > to reduce the "Slapping" amoung other things.  They were less than the JE
> > ones.  I have the Autotech 16V Sport cams.  I curious to see if you have cam
> > seal leaks like I did from the Autotech cams.  ( I went round and round with
> > them and ended up buying another intake one - long story).  I have a
> > lightened flywheel and I really like the Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch.
> > I have one on each of our Scirocco's and it has taken everything I can throw
> > at it and I am pushing at least 160HP through it.
> >
> >
> >  On 7/10/06, Lance LaPrarie <sciroccojunky@gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > >  Hey Don,
> > >
> > > I'm waiting on a build sheet for my motor. All I have is the break
> > > down of parts from my bill. Not sure of all the actual measurements that
> > > they did. NW Connecting Rod did all the block work and did a full stage
> > > three on the head. I got Techtonics valve springs, JE pistons, Autotech
> > > cams, all balanced.  The crank was balanced, polished and knife edged.
> > > Lightened flywheel and a sport clutch. It says Sachs on the bill. Got to get
> > > more info on that. My guy mentioned I'll need a heavier duty clutch to
> > > compensate for the added power. Not sure if a stock 16v Sachs clutch can
> > > handle that. Gots to check on that. I asked the shop to do all APR fasteners
> > > and they said that stock stuff is built really well and not to spend the
> > > money. That's pretty cool since I'm sure they'd take my money if they
> > > thought they would help. That is one thing I really like about Fine Tuning
> > > is that you ask them stuff and they shoot you straight. They will tell you
> > > what is good and what will work. If you want to put something cheesy on or
> > > something overkill they'll tell you what's up. Most shops will just say yes
> > > sir and go to town, whether you actually need it or not. So, trust is a huge
> > > factor with me. The motor pulls really stong and runs great. I'm happy with
> > > the work.
> > >
> > > The purpose of the motor was to give me as much power but with the
> > > ability to pass emissions without having to swap out stuff. I almost bought
> > > a 16v off of a guy about 5 years ago and the guy had some Schrick cams in it
> > > that were really aggressive. The problem with that was to to transfer title
> > > in Washington you have to pass emissions. Kind of sucked since I would have
> > > to scare of some stock cams and swap them out. The car was awesome. Started
> > > out 8v but did a Kamei body kit, awesome suspension, wheels etc.... I didn't
> > > feel like spending the money at the time. Not like I'm going to be selling
> > > my rocco anytime to anyone but don't want to have to go through the hassle
> > > for tabs. I'm pretty handy with a wrench but don't want to switch out cams
> > > every two years. So with that said I chose as agressive a cam you can get
> > > without having to sacrifice emissions. Other than that my motor is basically
> > > all race.
> > >
> > > I'll let you know what all the perticulars are hopefully today. My
> > > chip comes in today or tomorrow and I'll get the info then.
> > >
> > > Thanks!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 7/7/06, Don Walter <dswalterwi@gmail.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  Lance,
> > > > Your setup sounds similar to mine.  What Autotech cams do you have?
> > > > Which forged pistons and what size are they?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  On 7/7/06, Lance LaPrarie <sciroccojunky@gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey Dan,
> > > > >
> > > > > I just got through the break in period last Sunday. My guy that
> > > > > built the
> > > > > motor told me to keep the car under 3500RPM for the duration of
> > > > > the 1500
> > > > > mile break in. So I didn't have the ability to really gauge the
> > > > > difference
> > > > > from my stock 1.8 with cams and CIS. However I did notice that
> > > > > going up
> > > > > steep hills and acceleration were much better to the 3500 shop
> > > > > imposed
> > > > > limit. Sunday I started wrapping it out to see where the power
> > > > > comes on.
> > > > > With my E36 M3 the power comes on like a sledgehammer around
> > > > > 4000RPM. The
> > > > > same can be said of any VR6 car but more like a mallet relatively
> > > > > speaking.
> > > > > On my 16v 2.2ltr it comes on very linear. There isn't a big rush
> > > > > of pull at
> > > > > any real RPM like my other car. I was kind of worried that my
> > > > > motor wasn't
> > > > > set up properly. One thing though is with the forged pistons it
> > > > > seems to
> > > > > take about 15-20 minutes of driving time for them to heat up.
> > > > > Driving it
> > > > > cold seems kind of lopey with the AutoTech cams. Not too much
> > > > > power
> > > > > difference. It is better than my older motor but isn't as dramatic
> > > > > under
> > > > > lower RPM. When it is totally warmed up like half way through my
> > > > > drive in to
> > > > > work which is about 30 miles. Power is really evident when I'm
> > > > > around 5k-6k.
> > > > > This is with basically the same setup as the guy on Ebay selling
> > > > > his 2.2ltr.
> > > > > I moved to Motronic for idle stability. Was going to go the
> > > > > megasquirt route
> > > > > but didn't have the extra dough for all the doo dads required for
> > > > > the swap.
> > > > > The shop that did my motor charged me $150 total for the Motronic
> > > > > swap. That
> > > > > is a phat deal for sure. Monday I'm getting the TechTonics chip
> > > > > made for my
> > > > > setup. That should add quite a bit for the $100 it cost. Much
> > > > > better than
> > > > > $500+ for an intake.
> > > > >
> > > > > I dig the motor and seems to run extra smooth. The idle is kind of
> > > > > rough but
> > > > > my guy mentioned that it is the cams that make the idle that
> > > > > lopey. Before
> > > > > WaterWagens I'm getting my ceramic coated SuperSprint header
> > > > > installed to
> > > > > replace my aging header. Funny how these things crack so often.
> > > > > They used
> > > > > half a reel of wire to repair the latest round of cracks. It
> > > > > really sucks
> > > > > bad that SuperSprint has discontinued all Scirocco related
> > > > > products and
> > > > > replacement parts. Their gear is top notch in my book.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/7/06, Dan Bubb <jdbubb@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't have any hard data either, but some peripheral data
> > > > > seems to
> > > > > > indicate the 50mm ought to work well on a 2.0 or 2.2L.
> > > > > > Of course, the 50mm originally came on the European 1.8L. That,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > addition of a cat and the Euro intake cam, which is still
> > > > > nothing to write
> > > > > > home about, raised power from 123@5800 to 139@6100. The maximum
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > speed went from 4250 to 4800 although the max torque value
> > > > > didn't change
> > > > > > much (conflicting numbers from my research). And, of course, the
> > > > > breadth of
> > > > > > the torque curve is probably very much in favor of the US
> > > > > engine.
> > > > > > Anyway, the bigger intake manifold seems to be integral to the
> > > > > higher
> > > > > > power of the Euro 1.8L.
> > > > > > I'd can't think of any reason why that wouldn't translate to a
> > > > > bigger
> > > > > > engine that will have an even higher airflow capability.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My experience with 16V engines isn't extensive, but I do know
> > > > > that the
> > > > > > difference in midrange power going from a 1.8L to a 2.0L, with
> > > > > no other
> > > > > > changes, is really dramatic. I'd expect the 2.2L would be
> > > > > another big step
> > > > > > up. So, much in fact that I doubt you'd miss the comparative
> > > > > lack of
> > > > > > midrange of the 50mm.
> > > > > > Typically, increasing an engine's displacement without other
> > > > > changes will
> > > > > > increase torque and low end power, but will also reduce the peak
> > > > > power
> > > > > > speed. So you end up with a comparative torque monster that
> > > > > needs to be
> > > > > > shifted at a lower maximum RPM. Making changes to bolster the
> > > > > top end would
> > > > > > seem appropriate to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Check out the pictures here:
> > > > > > http://www.scirocco16v.com/gallery/16v_abfengines_index1.htm
> > > > > > The 2.0L European ABF looks to have a hell of a big intake
> > > > > manifold.
> > > > > > Well, at least it looks that way to me!
> > > > > > Anyway, nothing definitive, just a bunch of sort of related
> > > > > facts and my
> > > > > > opinion.
> > > > > > Dan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Lance LaPrarie" < sciroccojunky@gmail.com>
> > > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" <dan.bubb@gmail.com>
> > > > > > Cc: "alex porter" < alexporter_14@hotmail.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:51 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: ebay link
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hey Dan,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't have any hard data to back that statement up. I did a
> > > > > bunch of
> > > > > > > research when deciding to get the best out of my buck on my
> > > > > current
> > > > > > motor.
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > was going to buy a 50mm intake and read somewhere that it
> > > > > really doesn't
> > > > > > > do anything for you on larger motors. I also asked the shop
> > > > > that built
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > motor and they said it wouldn't do anything benefitial for me
> > > > > and not to
> > > > > > > spend the money. From what I gathered it's like the 1.8ltrhead on a
> > > > > > > 2.0ltrblock. It helps if you don't port it out. Once you port
> > > > > it out
> > > > > > > you lose the
> > > > > > > advantage over the 2ltr head ported. Porting a 1.8 and a 2.0head there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > really no difference between them. So if you know something
> > > > > that I
> > > > > > don't,
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > stand corrected. Also, top end power really doesn't matter to
> > > > > me since
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > not going to be racing my car. I'd rather have the power in a
> > > > > usable
> > > > > > spot
> > > > > > > which is the midrange. My personal preference though.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 7/6/06, Dan Bubb <dan.bubb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Lance,
> > > > > > >>> Have any data to back up this statement?
> > > > > > >>> I think the common knowledge is that the 50mm intake boosts
> > > > > top end
> > > > > > >>> but hurts the midrange some, at least on the 1.8L.
> > > > > > >>> I'd think with the additional airflow of the 2.0 or 2.2Lengines it'd
> > > > > > >>> be a benefit everywhere.
> > > > > > >>> Dan
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> On 7/5/06, Lance LaPrarie < sciroccojunky@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> > I opted out on the
> > > > > > >>> > 50mm intake since it actually robs you of power on 2.016v's or
> > > > > > larger.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > Check it out.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > > > > >> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > > >> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
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> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Don Walter - Waukesha, WI
> > > > 1986 8V Black Scirocco (Daily Driver)
> > > > 1984 8V Audi 4000s (RIP 2/14/2006)
> > > > 1986 2.0L 16V TEC 2 Black Scirocco (see progress at
> > > > http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/708939)
> > > > 1986 2L 16V Toronado Red Scirocco (Ben's Car)
> > > > 1988 1.8 16V Toronado Red Scirocco (sold on 3/29/04)
> > > > 1984 1.8 8V Pewter Scirocco (sold years ago)
> > > > 1971 Karman Ghia (sold)
> > > > 1969 Karman Ghia (sold)
> > > > 1969 Beetle (sold)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Don Walter - Waukesha, WI
> > 1986 8V Black Scirocco (Daily Driver)
> > 1984 8V Audi 4000s (RIP 2/14/2006)
> > 1986 2.0L 16V TEC 2 Black Scirocco (see progress at http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/708939
> > )
> > 1986 2L 16V Toronado Red Scirocco (Ben's Car)
> > 1988 1.8 16V Toronado Red Scirocco (sold on 3/29/04)
> > 1984 1.8 8V Pewter Scirocco (sold years ago)
> > 1971 Karman Ghia (sold)
> > 1969 Karman Ghia (sold)
> > 1969 Beetle (sold)
> >
>
>


-- 
Don Walter - Waukesha, WI
1986 8V Black Scirocco (Daily Driver)
1984 8V Audi 4000s (RIP 2/14/2006)
1986 2.0L 16V TEC 2 Black Scirocco (see progress at
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/708939)
1986 2L 16V Toronado Red Scirocco (Ben's Car)
1988 1.8 16V Toronado Red Scirocco (sold on 3/29/04)
1984 1.8 8V Pewter Scirocco (sold years ago)
1971 Karman Ghia (sold)
1969 Karman Ghia (sold)
1969 Beetle (sold)