ATS REPLIES...REAL LONG !!! was: ats and his site and his herdgone ???

[amalventano at sc.rr.com (Allyn)]

i respond within. some quotes are patrick, some are mine from earlier. i 
should send this direct to patrick, but i must defend against some of his 
claims - to the list.

> Like it or not, I paid for them, they are my property, and I do not like 
> the
> way you dare assume that you are important enough on this planet, to tell 
> me
> how, when, where, and for what reasons, I may dispense with my property.

- for some reason you think i flat out said what you can and cant do with 
your property. lets look at my original line again:

> 1. he just dumped his entire rocco collection off at a junkyard. with all 
> of
> the trouble other listers go through to 'save' these dwindling cars, that
> just pisses me off.

- so, what i am trying to say is that it appears you are backstabbing the 
list. also note that i said 'other listers' - i have enough roccos - i dont 
want any of yours, nor did i ever want them.
- you have been here for years, you have watched as nearly all of us have 
done everything we could to save these things from the junkyards. then what 
do you do? you completely undermine everyones actions on the list with one 
swift move. * the situation may actually be different, but as there was no 
post telling us the real situation, this was what seemed to have happened by 
your actions.

> 2. my web site, my intellectual property, see 1 for further information 
> how
> I can, will and decide how I will dispense of it again.

- the 'ip' thing has always been a sore spot with me, and i could go on for 
hours with a tirade about the issue, but i'll put this into a way that i am 
sure everyone can understand. i suppose you did each and every one of those 
procedures on your car with no help from the list whatsoever? correct me if 
im wrong, but it seemed you made those tech notes as a way of 'giving back' 
to the list. you must have felt obligated in some way to go through all of 
that terrific effort. along those lines - there could have been a smoother 
transition before yanking the info entirely. thats all im trying to say.

now lets look as my post that started that:

> 2. he took his site down, on purpose. all of the technotes. no warning 
> that
> its going down in a week or so. no ability of anyone to mirror said
> technotes for future education of others. just gone.

- you know, it sure doesnt look like i mentioned 'me' in there anywhere. my 
concern is for those on the list that don't know how to do these things, and 
who looked up to your most excellent tech notes section. imagine those who 
comb the list archives and find one of your many 'just look at my tech 
procedure <link>' - only to find the info is now gone.

> Again your angry and your not making a lot of sence here. And your holier
> than god tone of writing your emails to the list, like I was not present,
> only reaffirms this fact.

ok patrick, from the info above its obvious that you didnt actually *read* 
my initial postings and only interpret it in some twisted manner - so i 
suggest you actually _read_ my following replies to the rest of your 
comments:

> Again Allyn, you only display, the; me, me, me symptoms of a child, you 
> want
> my tech notes, I screwed the LIST? Excuse me? 5 years on this list. 5 
> years
> of listening and answering young men trying to figure out what they got
> themselves into? I screwed the list? I don't think so.

- i have in no way indicated any sort of "me" greedy actions (backed up by 
my original post - several times over actually).
- i've been on this list just as long as you have, and have helped out 
others just as much as you have. what point were you trying to make with 
that statement exactly?
- i didnt say that i wanted your technotes. i have never even viewed your 
technotes. they must have been good, as many have requested them, as well as 
many requesting to mirror them so they do not simply vanish (to _help 
others_).
- yes, in my opinion, you screwed the list. you dumped roccos while others 
try their hardest to save them. you simply yanked tech info that other 
listers may have come to depend on. c'mon patrick, you have to imagine at 
least *some* of the list is going to think those actions are selfish on your 
part.

> Like it or not, I paid for them, they are my property
...and...
> I believe that intellectual property, it be a book or web site, are laws
> that protect people from "STEALING" and copying such materials, though 
> many
> would not stop at "copying" to better their vantage point.
...and...
> when I make my decision, the List will know, Period.

- it appears it is in fact you who has the 'holier than god tone' and 'me, 
me, me' issues here. just listen to yourself back there.
- do you really think you did all of that work with no input from the list 
whatsoever? how would you like it if every lister who contributed to any of 
those tech procedures took you to court - as you *stole* their intelectual 
property (when they responded to your question on the list). feels kinda 
silly doesnt it? its the same thing you are doing. if you feel like waving 
the 'ip' flag around, i'll wave a different 'flag' for you: you are trying 
to claim copyright on information that is not only your own, but includes 
information gathered from the list - with no permission from those listers.
- while you have every right to take the info down from your own web site, 
as it is you who incurs the hosting/maintenance costs, you should realize 
that the information itself did not all come from you. others listers know 
this, and i am sure that some would feel a bit disappointed towards you if 
the tech notes simply vanished forever.

> Grow up Allyn.

you know, this is getting annoying. it is clear that i was in no way 
childish in my post here. you wish to twist it and make it how you like - so 
be it. if i was really being childish about this i would have simply posted 
a mirror of your technotes here and to the vortex (yes, there are places on 
the web that auto-mirror web sites - and yes, its perfectally legal to do 
so - as that info was posted publically at the time). i obviously didnt do 
this, and its funny how ironic that is - i was nice enough not to back-door 
you while *you back-door the entire list.

* that is my current opinion. if you do in fact have a plan to post your 
notes elsewhere, that is very nice of you indeed. realize that the 
responsible way to go about it would have involved telling the list about it 
prior to the site vanishing and allowing others to form premature opinions 
of you as the confusion ensues (here and on the vortex). please feel free to 
go on another "me, me, me" tirade, saying that they are your technotes and 
you'll do what you want with them - that will only back up what i have 
stated above.

> Now since the cat is out of the bag, and I will surely tire rapidly
> to repeat myself, so here is the scoop;
...and...
> Wanting to save a car is commendable, trying to rescue a project that
> will continue to rot in someone else's yard, is futile...

thank you for finally informing us of what really happened.

Al