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Stand-alone engine management?
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A direct answer to your question is about 2 paragraphs or so below.
I have used Haltech engine management and MSD ignition systems in race cars running Motorcycle engines. I have never used SDS. Look through the list archives and you will see that I don't really understand why people do use SDS, but then that's been covered before. The only conclusion I can reach is that SDS tries to make their stuff sound simple because they don't use a PC. My experience is that the PC based Haltech is dirt simple to use, and I understand from others that other PC systems are just as easy to use. Without turning this into any more of a rant, I will tell you it is nice to have whole portions of the fuel map displayed graphically in front of you while you are working, to see an active display of what point on the map is currently in use, and to have things like rpm, temp and throttle position readings always on the screen. As for the cost of the PC, the last system I helped tune was done on something like a 200Mhz desktop PC, and that was overkill. Laptops are not really necessary and I have never datalogged anything (if you want to, tie your POS old PC down in the trunk and use a power inverter). You need an air/fuel ratio meter of some kind, and you can do quite well without a dyno if you know what you are doing (not claiming I did, but my team did - we gained only 1hp by fine-tuning on a dyno)
The MSD system I used was the MC-4 Digital. This is also a PC based system. I would rather have gone with an integrated fuel and ignition setup just for the convenience of not having to disconnect the fuel computer to plug into the ignition computer, but we had the Haltechs lying around. Other than that it was fine. This MSD system is specifically for motorcycle engines (I'm not sure what cars it may or may not work on), for what its worth. The MSD digital system allows you to set ignition timing on a nice clear graph, and you change the graph by dragging the point you want to move. How easy is that. You can set the car's redline, a launch rev limiter (with any old toggle switch used to set "launch" mode), and response to a knock sensor.
As for specific use in your car: These systems don't really care what kind of car they are in. They need a few sensors and that's about it. A typical setup would involve hooking the computer up to a temp sensor, absolute air pressure sensor (reading pressure inside the intake manifold), some kind of rpm sensor, and a throttle position sensor. Somebody tell him what I forgot.
The Haltech F9 and F9a systems I have used came with the temp and pressure and you just need to tap into the intake and run vacuum line to the pressure sensor (or use an existing hole somewhere). Our cars already send an rpm signal to the tach, so you can borrow that. The only thing left is the TPS (throttle position sensor), which sends a voltage to the computer that varies with throttle opening. Our cars don't have that, but apparently there is a throttle body that will bolt on in place of ours that does. Potterman once told me which VW throttle body this was, but I forgot. Just ask him if you need to know. If you want to keep your own throttle body, you will need some kind of bracket to hold any TPS in place, and some adaptor to hook it to the appropriate shaft. It's not rocket science, you just stare at it and throw something together.
As for comparisons of systems, Haltech worked for us. Their customer support was non-existent, but their manual is excellent. It explains EVERY step you need to do to tune the car, and explains why. We once needed a replacement TPS, which they wanted an arm and two legs for, so we bought a $10 Ford one and spliced it in.
Don't know about anything else, but I've always been told that Tec-II is the way to go if you have a turbo. I have no clue what it has that makes that true, but it was the big favorite for teams using turbos. Go figure.
There are a lot of other systems out there, and the DIY-EFI webpage will even tell you how to build your own if that's your kind of thing.
...and yes, I'm sure the SDS will work just fine, too.
Brian
Ryan H <rhock99@epix.net> wrote:I was just looking through those links, and they don't seem to say anything specific about their systems for VW. (Very general info). Only EIP has stuff about TEC-II for my car...
So I was sorta looking for people who have experience with these systems on their cars here.
>
> From: Brett Van Sprewenburg
> Date: 2002/10/27 Sun PM 11:22:57 EST
> To: Ryan H
> CC: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> Subject: Re: Stand-alone engine management?
>
> >Are there any stand-alone engine management systems available for a
> >16v? I'm looking for one that controls spark and timing advance,
> >maybe via the knock sensor, coolant temp. sensor, hall sender,
> >throttle switches, plugs, etc.
> >I'm sick of the problems with my knock system, and plan on adding a
> >turbo in the future, so it would be nice to have a SEM system to
> >learn until then... Thanks.
>
> Check the links on scirocco.org, the Engine & Fuel Management
> section. You'll find 5-7
> links to different makers of stand alone engine management systems.
> I think you could
> probably find some expertise on just about every one of them listed
> by someone on this
> mailing list. :) I'm going with SDS in case anyone cares, as it fit
> my price point, and gels
> with my level of expertise and tuning expectations.
>
> Any one of those systems is capable of running a 16v, or a turbo 16v
> for that matter.
>
> ==Brett
>
>
>
> --
> \/ `87 Scirocco 2.0t project | "Hot VW's, take two home. They're small"
> \/\/ '88 Scirocco 16v, '84 Scirocco ITB racer project | - brett@netacc.net
>
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<P>A direct answer to your question is about 2 paragraphs or so below.
<P>I have used Haltech engine management and MSD ignition systems in race cars running Motorcycle engines. I have never used SDS. Look through the list archives and you will see that I don't really understand why people do use SDS, but then that's been covered before. The only conclusion I can reach is that SDS tries to make their stuff sound simple because they don't use a PC. My experience is that the PC based Haltech is dirt simple to use, and I understand from others that other PC systems are just as easy to use. Without turning this into any more of a rant, I will tell you it is nice to have whole portions of the fuel map displayed graphically in front of you while you are working, to see an active display of what point on the map is currently in use, and to have things like rpm, temp and throttle position readings always on the screen. As for the cost of the PC, the last system I helped tune was done on something like a 200Mhz desktop PC, and that was overkill. Laptops are not really necessary and I have never datalogged anything (if you want to, tie your POS old PC down in the trunk and use a power inverter). You need an air/fuel ratio meter of some kind, and you can do quite well without a dyno if you know what you are doing (not claiming I did, but my team did - we gained only 1hp by fine-tuning on a dyno)
<P>The MSD system I used was the MC-4 Digital. This is also a PC based system. I would rather have gone with an integrated fuel and ignition setup just for the convenience of not having to disconnect the fuel computer to plug into the ignition computer, but we had the Haltechs lying around. Other than that it was fine. This MSD system is specifically for motorcycle engines (I'm not sure what cars it may or may not work on), for what its worth. The MSD digital system allows you to set ignition timing on a nice clear graph, and you change the graph by dragging the point you want to move. How easy is that. You can set the car's redline, a launch rev limiter (with any old toggle switch used to set "launch" mode), and response to a knock sensor.
<P>As for specific use in your car: These systems don't really care what kind of car they are in. They need a few sensors and that's about it. A typical setup would involve hooking the computer up to a temp sensor, absolute air pressure sensor (reading pressure inside the intake manifold), some kind of rpm sensor, and a throttle position sensor. Somebody tell him what I forgot.
<P>The Haltech F9 and F9a systems I have used came with the temp and pressure and you just need to tap into the intake and run vacuum line to the pressure sensor (or use an existing hole somewhere). Our cars already send an rpm signal to the tach, so you can borrow that. The only thing left is the TPS (throttle position sensor), which sends a voltage to the computer that varies with throttle opening. Our cars don't have that, but apparently there is a throttle body that will bolt on in place of ours that does. Potterman once told me which VW throttle body this was, but I forgot. Just ask him if you need to know. If you want to keep your own throttle body, you will need some kind of bracket to hold any TPS in place, and some adaptor to hook it to the appropriate shaft. It's not rocket science, you just stare at it and throw something together.
<P>As for comparisons of systems, Haltech worked for us. Their customer support was non-existent, but their manual is excellent. It explains EVERY step you need to do to tune the car, and explains why. We once needed a replacement TPS, which they wanted an arm and two legs for, so we bought a $10 Ford one and spliced it in.
<P>Don't know about anything else, but I've always been told that Tec-II is the way to go if you have a turbo. I have no clue what it has that makes that true, but it was the big favorite for teams using turbos. Go figure.
<P>There are a lot of other systems out there, and the DIY-EFI webpage will even tell you how to build your own if that's your kind of thing.
<P>...and yes, I'm sure the SDS will work just fine, too.
<P>Brian
<P> <B><I>Ryan H <rhock99@epix.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I was just looking through those links, and they don't seem to say anything specific about their systems for VW. (Very general info). Only EIP has stuff about TEC-II for my car... <BR>So I was sorta looking for people who have experience with these systems on their cars here. <BR><BR>> <BR>> From: Brett Van Sprewenburg <BRETT@NETACC.NET><BR>> Date: 2002/10/27 Sun PM 11:22:57 EST<BR>> To: Ryan H <RHOCK99@EPIX.NET><BR>> CC: scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>> Subject: Re: Stand-alone engine management?<BR>> <BR>> >Are there any stand-alone engine management systems available for a <BR>> >16v? I'm looking for one that controls spark and timing advance, <BR>> >maybe via the knock sensor, coolant temp. sensor, hall sender, <BR>> >throttle switches, plugs, etc.<BR>> >I'm sick of the problems with my knock system, and plan on adding a <BR>> >turbo in the future, so it would be nice to have a SEM system to <BR>> >learn until then... Thanks.<BR>> <BR>> Check the links on scirocco.org, the Engine & Fuel Management <BR>> section. You'll find 5-7<BR>> links to different makers of stand alone engine management systems. <BR>> I think you could<BR>> probably find some expertise on just about every one of them listed <BR>> by someone on this<BR>> mailing list. :) I'm going with SDS in case anyone cares, as it fit <BR>> my price point, and gels<BR>> with my level of expertise and tuning expectations.<BR>> <BR>> Any one of those systems is capable of running a 16v, or a turbo 16v <BR>> for that matter.<BR>> <BR>> ==Brett<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> \/ `87 Scirocco 2.0t project | "Hot VW's, take two home. They're small"<BR>> \/\/ '88 Scirocco 16v, '84 Scirocco ITB racer project | - brett@netacc.net<BR>> <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Scirocco-l mailing list<BR>Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<BR>http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l</BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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