Science of Injectors was[Re: The whole 1.8T puny injector debacle]

[brianm@earendel.org (Brian McGarvey)]

Ok.
First Josh. I was the one that asked about the corrected HP.. after you
took the iniative and called the tuner / or whoever. I do remember getting
corrected HP for all my bike runs. The dyno folks normalize it so that ppl
can compare apples to apples. because humidity, baro pressure, temp etc
all effect the HP /torque readings. Just as an example my highly tuned
Honda VFR750F (0.75L V-four) does wheelies on days where the temp is about
65 degrees, slightly misty. and at the same typical pressure Bellvue is
at. It was tuned in Seattle. Other days well i lose enough HP to only do
throttle chop/WOT (technical terms) 2nd gear wheelies. On those days im
pushing around 100HP at the rear wheel most days i run about 80-89HP at
the wheels (memory from years ago so give me a break)... Mind you i used to
get worse gas mileage on my bike then in the 2.0L bunny..
but it went a hellava lot faster...

Data here according to Dynojet.. (motorcycles cause thats what i know
best) So we may have a problem with some of the  basic assumptions here. a
VMAX with a stage 7 kit and full on race pipe. will do around 110+HP
(naturally aspirated, carbs) The new hyabusa 1300cc gets over 145HP at the
ground. Also naturally aspriated with EFI. some ppl are claiming 175HP out
of a NA motor that only 1.3L

Im going thru the math using MATLAB(TM) from aquamist. If anybody has some
documented basic science equations I'll be happy to include them into the
system. So the basic site that im getting my info from is

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/faq/airmass/airmass.html

So lets make this a discussion to actually learn shit.

there is the basic questions of
how much energy does pump fuel contain.
How much air can be pushed thru the system
what kind of effieceny can we expect.
why do we dump extra fuel in the system (yes i know to keep it cool), but
how much and exactly where and why
what are the safe limits of EFI.
what makes the systems unsafe
what kind of damage can you do if it is not done right.
what kind of safety margins do we want.
what options do we have to make more HP safely.
how to manage it.
what happens when our system is no longer at stable ambient
temp's, pressure therefore density.
turbo vs supercharging.
NOS vs forced induction.
expected lifetimes.

Brian..
One of the many engineers on this list. and Matlab 6.2 compliant :-)
.75L 89HP V-four big ass jets, and full on race 4-2-1 2" exhaust
2.0L 8v no knock ignition..
1.8L 16v ... TT race down and back. unknown other mods.



On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Erik La Celle wrote:

> I found the scientific part of the discussion to be quite interesting.
> And I also know you were quite clear from the beginning that you had
> concerns for the motor destroying itself should the injectors lean out
> for any reason since they apparently are operating at near max capacity.
> This is all good -- this is exactly why people are here (AFAIK).  Oh,
> and I have to admit I missed the part about it may have bigger injectors
> in it.
>
> I agree with you 100% that the personal attacks didn't contribute
> anything to the discussion other than to disclose the personalities of
> those making them.  Worse, these coming from people with A LOT of
> knowledge to share with the rest of us.
>
> Unfortunately, it appears we will never have the answers to questions
> such as:
>     Is the car making the power (topic question) with those injectors?
>     If it is, how did they do that?
>     Was there unreasonable risk involved in the set-up?
>     Or is it a matter of not meeting currently held beliefs of what the
> safety margin should be?
>
> The good news is Josh is on his way to the 300+ benchmark.  So, in a
> good way I'll say You go boy!
>
> Erik L
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott F. Williams <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> To: Erik La Celle <lacelle@frontiernet.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 9:10 AM
> Subject: RE: The whole 1.8T puny injector debacle
>
>
> > > You never heard that?  This is the exact reason why this thread is
> so
> > > annoying.  You didn't read a bunch of this thread because the
> contention
> > > is that these injectors CANNOT make the power shown on the dyno.
> This
> > > is the issue.   Stick with the program here.
> >
> > Hey, dude. I started the injector thread and will thusly claim
> ownership of
> > the original intent. You are absolutely correct about my assessment of
> the
> > injectors. I said before and will say again that they can't produce
> that
> > kind of power. My suggestion the whole while has been that Josh's dyno
> > numbers are probably correct and that his injectors are bigger than he
> > thinks.
> >
> > The spirit of my objections has been entirely scientific and Josh
> knows
> > this. We've communicated quite a bit offline so he  understands the
> context
> > of the dispute from my point of view. However, some (unnamed) people
> get
> > more enjoyment out of character assasination then pushing the
> boundaries of
> > hotrod knowledge or the pursuit thereof. That folks have begun flaming
> each
> > other over this topic seriously pisses me off. Again, the point here
> was to
> > strongly challenge Josh's claims so as to reveal the truth.
> >
> > One side of me hopes to be proven right -that my math and casual
> engineering
> > knowledge will be proven sound. The other side of me welcomes a
> reality
> > check -information that demonstrates a paradigm shift in fuel injector
> > technique. Either way, I will feel that the thread has fulfilled its
> > intended purpose.
> >
> > > > > People aren't saying it "isn't safe" they are point blank
> calling
> > > > > me, and  assorted 1.8t tuners liars.
> >
> > The first arguement was that Josh's injectors were running at 75% duty
> > cycle. Meanwhile a call to his tuner revealed that it was more like
> > something over 90%. Frankly, I remain astounded that the units could
> flow
> > enough fuel at even 100%! Anyway, behind the scenes (off list) Josh
> asked a
> > bunch of questions and he decided to play it safe with some bigger
> > injectors. Although the guy has his pride which often gets in the way
> of his
> > common sense, he isn't stupid. -immature? YES! -stupid? Nah...
> >
> > > > No. I point blank called you a PUNK.
> >
> > I gave Meze a tongue lashing for that one. My motivations are
> intellectual
> > and this sort of behaviour derailed the point of the exercise.
> >
> > > Also, Josh already got the point because he's decided to get
> > > bigger injectors and remap.  THIS WAS DAYS AGO!!!
> >
> > And, even with some of the nonsense going on Josh did the right thing.
> That
> > makes this all worth it to me. I know Josh appreciates it, too. Of
> course,
> > he'd never admit that to the group, but... .that's his own perogative.
> :^)
> >
> > > The car has been offered to be placed on the dyno, the person(s) who
> are
> > > wrong to pay the cost.  NO ONE has taken him up on this.  Hmm.
> >
> > That was a great tactical move on Mr. Able's part. I doubt that anyone
> will
> > put up or shut up. My point has been about the injectors the whole
> while,
> > though. I am inclined to believe that he's making the power. Let's see
> what
> > he can do with the bigger injectors! That'll be a very interesting
> test
> > itself.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for listening. I realize that you weren't even
> criticizing me
> > with  your comments. However, I do want list members to understand the
> > motivation behind the whole debate. So long as some or all of us learn
> > something from this, it is surely all good!
> > --
> > Scott F. Williams
> > NJ Scirocco nut
> > '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> > Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> > Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> > ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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