Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

[mkii@nycap.rr.com (Josh Able)]

http://users.tunerswanted.org/JoshmkII/dyno.jpg


Josh Able

----- Original Message -----
From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors


> post it :)
>
> ==========================================
> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
>
>
> =>-----Original Message-----
> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:38 AM
> =>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =>
> =>
> =>and I have the chart to prove it. :P
> =>
> =>
> =>Josh Able
> =>
> =>----- Original Message -----
> =>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> =>To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =>
> =>
> =>> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
> =>> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
> =>> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
> =>> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
> =>>
> =>> ==========================================
> =>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> =>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> =>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> =>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> =>>
> =>>
> =>> =>-----Original Message-----
> =>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> =>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> =>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
> =>> =>To: Scott F. Williams
> =>> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =>> =>
> =>> =>
> =>> =>
> =>> =>31 pound = 310cc
> =>> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
> =>> =>
> =>> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
> =>> =>produce 350ish
> =>> =>hp.
> =>> =>
> =>> =>
> =>> =>These are larger than stock.
> =>> =>
> =>> =>
> =>> =>
> =>> =>Josh Able
> =>> =>
> =>> =>----- Original Message -----
> =>> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> =>> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> =>> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> =>> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
> =>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =>> =>
> =>> =>
> =>> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many
times,
> =>> =>anything
> =>> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is
> =>needed to make
> =>> =>that
> =>> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability
> =>discussion. We're
> =>> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given
volume
> =>of
> =>> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
> =>> =>before, there are
> =>> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
> =>> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
> =>> =>pressure of
> =>> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this
burst
> =>the
> =>> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
> =>> =>destroy the
> =>> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the engine
> =>> =>management
> =>> =>> system.
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
> =>> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of fuel. In
> =>your
> =>> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle.
> =>However, the ECU
> =>> =>pulses
> =>> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how you get a
> =>> =>variable
> =>> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running at
5%
> =>duty
> =>> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty
cycle.
> =>> =>However,
> =>> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors
> =>beyond this
> =>> =>point
> =>> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
> =>> =>*dangerous*
> =>> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run
480cc
> =>> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
> =>> =>just 210hp! In
> =>> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
> =>> =>the engine's
> =>> =>> *stock* injectors.
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> c) install bigger injectors
> =>> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
> =>> =>you're claiming
> =>> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is, 1lb/hour =
> =>> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
> =>> =>the metric
> =>> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far fetched!
:^)
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
> =>accurate
> =>> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable of
> =>flowing
> =>> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on. I
> =>totally
> =>> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power. However,
the
> =>> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
> =>> =>flow capacity
> =>> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the inflexible
laws
> =>of
> =>> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will blow the
> =>thing
> =>> =>to
> =>> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to
> =>ensure that
> =>> =>you've
> =>> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science, paranoia, or
> =>> =>whatever.
> =>> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
> =>> =>> --
> =>> =>> Scott F. Williams
> =>> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
> =>> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> =>> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> =>> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> =>> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>>
> =>> =>>
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