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RE: alignment
Shawn, that was awesome. Thank you! I will use this information as a place to
start once my '77 reaches pylon-worthiness. (admittedly, still some time from
now!)
Now that we've got a baseline for discussion, here's some more specific q's: You
mentioned that Wenzel used camber plates rotated to become castor plates. First,
was this a small adjustment, or did he make a large change? Positive castor
means tops of struts move forward, right? I'm assuming he still managed to get a
good deal of neg. camber into the front wheels. How? I hear Shine makes plates
that somehow do both castor and camber...
[non-alignment, but alignment-related] You and Kevin both run Hoosier AS303s,
right? What size? I've gotten a few surprisingly different opinions on spring
rates, swaybars (if any) and ride height. Any recommendations?
----Dan says-----
<SNIP...angular vs. linear measurement of toe stuff...>
> Anyway, what is the convention used to determine these measurements?
<SNIP>
-----------------
I've wondered about this before, too. I don't know much about how alignment
racks work (yet). The numbers indiate the delta between the track measured at
the front of the wheels vs. the back. Now, that leaves me with two questions:
1) Where on the wheel/tire do you measure? Center bead of tire tread? Inside
edge of tread? Inside edge of rim?
2) What happens if you change wheels/tires before you make changes? Changing rim
offset shouldn't matter, since the delta should be the same, but what if the
radius to the reference point changes, due to a diameter change or something?
You've just lost your baseline. It would seem an angular measurement of the
spindles relative to normal (logitudinal axis of the car) is the only acurate
toe measurement...
Neal
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
[mailto:owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Brideau
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:42 AM
To: sixteen.volt@gte.net; Shawn C Meze
Cc: scirocco-L@scirocco.org
Subject: Re: alignment
I have noticed several places showing toe measured in linear units. In this case
Shawn used inches.
Toe refers to an angle formed between the wheel and an axis on the car, or the
adjacent wheel. Angles are measured with angular units, like degrees or
radians.
The shop that did my last alignment provided a printout with before and after
measurements. The sheet had no units, and the shop guy had no idea what I was
talking about when I asked what the numbers meant. Evidently it is not
important, since the machine instructs the operator when the wheels are pointed
where they ought to be pointed.
Anyway, what is the convention used to determine these measurements?
Dan Brideau
http://www.type53.com
PS - I am still looking for a set of rear Euro bumper brackets.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn C Meze" <skerocdriver@juno.com>
To: <sixteen.volt@gte.net>
Cc: <scirocco-L@scirocco.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: alignment
>
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:32:26 -0400 "Neal Tovsen" <sixteen.volt@gte.net>
> writes:
> >Actually, I'd like to know what specs the autocrossers are using.
> >Particularly
> >Mk1, but also Mk2 if they're any different.
> >
> >Meze?
>
>
> HARK! Do I hear thy name?
> Yessss, yes I doooo, don't I.......
>
> Welp, there's various specs one could use and have a wide variety of
> results...
>
> Ill give a stock setup first.
>
> Simple, stock factory limits works fine.
> Zero toe, zero camber on all 4 corners. There is a -/+ factor which I
> don't know. Doesn't matter since your alignment shop will probably be
> sloppy when applying the numbers. Most are unless you can be in the car
> and see exactly what numbers are going on the car. (Hopefully it will be
> done on an alignment machine (Ya know, one that uses computers and
> stuff!) and not the old stick and spray paint method.
>
> Mild street setup:
>
> -0.5 camber front
> 1/32" total toe out front
> 0 toe - 0 camber rear.
>
> This setup will see a little better cornering with no additional tire
> wear on the inside. toe kills tires, this much toe will do nothing to
> hurt the tires. Also the slight negative camber will also help to wear
> the tires evenly across the tread block. This is in my book a very soft
> setup. Slight handling gains with no disadvantages in my book.
>
>
> Wild street setup:
>
> -2 camber front
> 1/16" total toe out front
> -1 camber rear
> 0 toe rear
>
> This setup will transform the car's handling into what feels like a
> cornering beast. Again, toe kills tires and not camber. In the life of
> the tires you might see some additional wear on the inside edge. Proper
> rotation of the tires should compensate for this.
>
>
> My autox setup:
>
> -2.8 camber front. (As much negative camber up front as I can get on my
> car.)
> 1/8" toe out front
> -1.5 camber rear
> 1/16" toe in rear
>
> This is what's on my car 365 24/7. Inside edge wear is starting to show a
> little on 14 month old street tires. This is the best setup ive ever used
> on the street to date. The car is a bit "nibbly" meaning it will steer on
> its own to a slight degree. I love the feel for the road it has as well.
> its major drawback is launching the car off the line. With that much
> negative camber, im only riding on about 2" wide tire tread on each tire.
> Tire slipping IS an issue in that area. (I will change it back to 0
> Camber and 0 toe for the VW -vs- Import drag races on June 3rd for max
> traction potential.)
>
>
> Now, the ultimate setup Doesn't exist. Wenzel kicked major ass at
> Nationals last year with his setup. That's probably as close to ultimate
> as one could probably get. Im sure as the years go by someone else will
> develop a suspension setup that will surpass what Wenzel did. make no
> bones, what they did with developing that car is in my mind, amazing.
>
> Some of the tricks he used included obtaining + caster with camber plates
> rotated 90 degrees to be used as Caster plates. More importantly a set of
> dual adjustable Koni's. (don't worry, I plan to imulate Wenzels
> suspension setup as much as possible before I try to develop beyond that.
> Before I can be BETTER than them I must first be AS GOOD as them.)
> Attention to details and attention to details. After that, pay attention
> to details.
>
> Most of HOW you set the car up depends on what the car feels like VS what
> the car is doing time wise. Something that Doesn't FEEL fast can
> sometimes actually BE fast. Just the same, if your not comfortable
> driving a car with a funky setup, then you probably wont go fast. (its
> that trust issue thing.)
>
> So the bottom line is, ther is no one setup That's perfect for everyone.
> You got to try different things and see what works (with your suspension
> hardware as well.) and what Doesn't work.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
>
> Shawn Méze
> 86' Jetta GLi 8V 84' Scirocco 8V 88' Corvette -SS 30-
> 82' Scirocco GTi -FSP 54- 79' "Project FSP Scirocco"
> The Fastest, Quickest, Cleanest and best looking Scirocco in all of San
> Diego!
> http://www.Geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1308/index.htm
>
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