uhh oops my apologies to the list, my e-mail defaults to cc-ing the list on that one and i noted it just after i clicked send, again I apologize for sending it to the list and offending anyone (except Mannix). Ryan -- To subscribe or unsubscribe, send email to scirocco-L-request@scirocco.org, with your request (subscribe, unsubscribe) in the BODY of the message.