Re: Autox:TOO much PUSH/understeer!

["I.Mannix" <mannix@secretignition.com>]

At 03:06 PM 8/31/98 -0500, Shannon Fenton wrote:
>I recently autoxd my car for the second time this weekend and I need your
input on understeer. I find the car just pushes around the turns. When I
raced in CO.  I had 35 in the front and rear tires. At this race I have 45.
Granted Im running stock size Pirelli P6000 all season tires and I can
chalk up some to me being to forceful and abrupt with the car, but it just
rolls like like bloated whale.
*******

Stock VW's do that.  I'll say it up front -  I read your whole message, and
it sounds to me like you simply overdrove the car.  That's OK!  VW's do
have a horrible problem with understeer in stock form, as do most FWD cars.
 You can put a bigger front bar on, adjustable shocks and get it aligned -
it'll help dramatically, but it will still understeer if you drive too fast
into a corner and jerk the wheel over.  It'll make a dramatic improvement -
IMHO, get a big front bar and alignment first, then go from there -
shocks/wheels/tires.  The big bar and alignment are going to make the
biggest difference in feel and balance.  Also, try using 40f and 50r in
terms of tire pressure - that could help the car rotate better, and adjust
as needed, based on rollover, grip, etc.  You can tune the balance of a car
pretty well with tire pressures.  Some say to go higher in the rear, some
say lower - a tire will have optimum grip at a certain pressure, and less
grip above and below that pressure.  I would rather overinflate the tire,
making the contact patch smaller, thereby reducing grip at that end.  Lower
pressure in the rear will allow the tire to roll over more, also reducing
grip, but I don't like the feel of that as much.  Experiment!  You want to
find the optimum front pressure, so you can get as much grip out of the
front as possible, then adjust rear grip until you get the balance you want
- - in Stock, there's only so much you can do to increase front grip, so once
you've optimized that, you leave it, and work on "de-gripping" the rear -
obviously, you want the most grip possible, as the car will go fastest that
way, but if you can't get the car to turn, well, it'll be slow.


There was another MKII 8V there who has seen ALOT better days and looked to
be on its last leg i.e. leaking various fluids, no first gear, exhaust
almost off..  I thought catch it in tech but apparently not. Got me for too
much loose stuff...(shut up Van Vuren!). This guy BEAT MY ASS! He did have
some race tires on stock steel rims but my best time was 86.xxx his was
79.xxx.
********

Race tires make a big difference, and chances are, since it was a DSP car,
it had more than race tires on it - just a front bar and an alignment makes
a HUGE difference  

 A couple of turbo talons were turning in 77.xxx and a new Porche Boxster
ran a .75. 
*********

What region?  Iowa?  AS Boxster?  Curious.  

Its was real fun but I was sorta upset as I drove 2.5 hours just to get
there and didn't want to make a fool of myself but did.
*********
I doubt that anyone discussed you at dinner that night!  You did'nt make a
fool out of yourself - everyone comes out a first time, and after that,
hopefully a second time.  No one has it figured out on their second time.
The only people who "make fools of themselves" are the ones who come to
autocrosses with huge egos, thinking they're Mario Andretti, strutting
about as if they're going to beat EVERYONE, etc.  I know you did'nt do
that, Shannon.   Don't worry about it - the region will be glad to see you
back at their next event!  We've only had a couple of the true joker
extraordinaire types at our events.  Umm, thinking, I can think of three
offhand.  Two of them were VW drivers, oddly enough - one came out in a GTI
with a 2.0 16v, all the goodies, he came to a few events, was pretty funny
to watch him - he's got little clonies, they all hang on his every word, he
thinks he's the MAN.  He did make a fool of himself, but he makes a fool of
himself no matter what he does.  

Another guy came out, we were holding a Trials, and the rule was to have
anyone new to it ride with a more experienced person, as Trials are
potentially more dangerous.  It used to be that we REQUIRED people to
attend an autocross or two before a Trials, but some people want to do
Trials, not autocross.  Makes sense, I can see that.  So, I'm driving
around(I've convinced them I'm "exeperienced."  Hah!  Driven a lawnmower
once....), anyhow, I was driving around the pits, looking for newcomers,
people who looked like they might need help.  There are two types of people
who might need help at an autocross - one stands just behind of or in front
of his car and looks lost.  They're OK, they're just nervous, don't know
what to do, so they freeze.  They're easy to bring up to speed, tend to be
nice people, are more concerned with making someone mad than anything else,
and generally turn into good competitors(unless autocross is just not for
them).  The other kind sits on the car, gives you the toughguy "I'm going
to kick your ass" look.  Driving around, there's one......."hey, come for a
ride with me."  He was a VW guy, and most new-to-autocross VW guys LIKE
riding in a "real" VW racecar.  "Nah, got it figured out."  Long story
short, I had to TELL this guy to ride with me, went out, showed him the
dangers of Trials, what he should be aware of, etc.  He wound up going
offcourse(into the grass) 3 times that day - that's bad.  I've done lots of
Trials events, NEVER gotten into the grass, and I drive a good bit(8-10
seconds/lap) faster than this guy.  Spoke with the Trials Chair, he had
talked to the same guy, said that "he knew everything, so I let him go on
his way.  Almost rolled his car in the process!"  I don't know that he
almost rolled his car, but I do know that HE made a fool out of himself.  

I won't say it is impossible to make a fool out of yourself at an
autocross, but those that do will pull it off no matter what they're doing
- - I guess this is the long winded way to say "don't worry about it."
Hitting cones?  First day of the Tour two weeks ago, I hit 5 in one run.
On one corner.  We all laughed about it, the corner workers hated me, but
in a fun way - everyone hits cones.  When you came to our event, it seemed
that you had a good time.  I can't remember for the life of me how fast you
went - you did not make a fool of yourself here, and I doubt you did there,
either!

 The course was real easy compared to what I raced on in CO. One salom, one
box, two 90 degree tight turns and a long 35mph sweeper. I think once I get
a little more settled I will be better but I want to get rid of as much of
this understeer as possible by mechanical and driving means. 
*********

Mechanical - alignment and swaybar.  As much negative camber as you can
get, 1/8" toe out or so.  That'll help a LOT.  

Driving?  Read on......

I think its what really slowed me down, I ate two cones by means of going
fast and turning so quick the front end just seemed to load up plow on
forward. My car is stock except for exhaust.
**********
SLOW DOWN!  I can picture it - too fast into a corner, the front tires
can't grip enough to change the car's direction.  Push.  Understeer.
Bummer.  Exit speed is FAR more important than entry speed - slow down
enough to stay on line, get on the gas early, and carry more speed between
the features.  If you take too much speed into a corner, and wind up
driving too far into it, off line, and slowly guiding the car toward where
you need to go, you wind up driving a longer distance to the same place,
and when you get the car pointed in the right direction, you're going
slower than you would have been had you slowed down earlier, more, and
stayed on line.  Make sense?  This is THE most common new-to-autocross
mistake - need to go faster?  Brake later!  Wrong:).  Brake earlier, take
the shortest line to the point where you need to get on the gas, and be on
the gas earlier.  Slow down to go faster - makes little sense, but a
*little* too fast is a LOT worse than a good bit too slow.  A little too
fast, you push offline, and wind up being on the brakes and catching up
where you should have been on the gas,.  Take a 180 degree, one cone
turnaround - every foot you drive past the cone is a foot you have to drive
BACK in the other direction.  It is always better to slow down more to stay
tight, not drive feet past the single cone than it is to try to carry speed
- - slow down, turn in, get ON the single cone, and back on the gas ASAP.
When done right, it feels slow.  Staying on line is important, sometimes
more important than other times - there can be times where it sorta does
not matter where the cones are, as long as you're carrying speed, and your
trajectory is going to put you in a good place to approach the next corner.
 Other places, other times, it is REALLY important to be ON a given cone,
pointed in a certain direction - figure out where those points are, and GET
THERE.  If you have to slow to a crawl, so be it - it will be faster.  

If the front tires are the limiting factor, you have to drive within their
limits.  If that means slowing down, fine - as you progress, you can work
on building speed to the limits of the front tires, adding a little speed
everywhere, but if your fronts are only capable of gripping "so" much,
there's only "so" much you can do at a given point.  


Any pointers? And anyone have the cliff notes for what classes are divided
up i.e. Im in ES...the 8V was in DSP...I know SP=Street Prepared but where
does the D come from?
*********

Dog Slow Prepared!  Cars are classed based on many factors, and some cars
benefit more than others based on legal modifications - as you probably
noticed, the 16v and 8v are both ES cars, but the 16v goes to CSP, 8v to
DSP.  A 16v engine has more potential than an 8v - done right, a 16v will
make more power compared to an 8v.  It would make sense to have a car go
from ES to ESP, to EP, to EM, but it just does not work out that way.  That
said, one might wonder why the 8vs are in the same class as the 16vs stock
- - basically(and this is, and will be, debated forever), there are only so
many classes, dozens of cars.  Older cars will become obsolete in Stock.
Too bad.  I'd bet the SCAC would put early 8v cars into HS if enough people
wrote letters(and I don't think they'd be dominant if they were to).  So,
who knows!  


Get a front swaybar.  Get an alignment - if you rotate your tires after
every event, tire wear won't be that bad.  And of course, drive a LOT!
Hope you had SOME fun!


I.Mannix(coming to another CO event anytime soon?)
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