Re: SCCA thread was BFG R1 Team T/A

[Iain Mannix <mannix@privateI.com>]

At 8:31 AM -0800 12/10/1997, Paul Krucke wrote:
>It would be nice to see VW active with contingencies, but again with
>the new models.  But as Iain said there is a better chance with the
>small tuners etc.
>
>Iain, you need to be more opimistic about out cars :-)

I wish I could be....but they've proven themselves to be slow in Stock
class.  They just can't keep up with the Neon/Celica/Saturn, hell, even a
1985 ES Honda CRX trophied at Nationals in ES this year.  Only four DSP VWs
beat all of E Stock this year(Kevin being one of them), and those four cars
are fairly to very well prepared, much faster than a stock ES VW, with
stiff springs, swaybars, intake work, exhaust work, 13xwide wheels, big
tires, etc.  I wish I could be more optimistic.

 As for the
>Neons, why does everyone think they are the shit?  Every event I have
>seen they have done OK and OK with good drivers.

Because they are:).  Neons, especially the DS ACR models, are _really_ fast
- the fastest DS Neon would have placed 6th in DSP.  Yikes.  The ES Neons
are slower, about a second slower per 60 second course, if the Nationals
results are telling(which they are not entirely telling - if the ES Neons
ran Tues/Weds in the first group, while, say, the DS Neons ran
Thursday/Friday in the last group, the DS Neons would have an advantage -
warmer concrete, clean line).  DSP ran Th/F late in the day - we had
arguably the best conditions to run under, while ES ran T/W in the second
group, almost the worst conditions, as far as crap on the course, which
reduces grip.  Even with this discrepancy, the ES fasties went pretty
damned fast.  The only ES VW was an 87 GTI, and it was 29th out of 30.  In
CSP, there was a 92 16v near the bottom - I did not see the ES VW, and from
his time, I am guessing that he was not the best driver in the world. The
CSP car looked fast, for whatever that is worth(not much), and he was well
off the pace, too.  I believe that the cars are better than these two lone
competitiors' times might suggest, but not classwinning better.  The A3 HS
car might be capable, but the third place finisher in HS at Nationals(Per
Schroeder) campaigned one last year, and could not get it to do the right
thing - he proved that he can drive, placing a close third in a Celica this
year, which he bought because the VW was not cutting the mustard.

I have driven them
>also (not the SCCA model) but would take my 8v Jetta GLi over it any
>day and we know that the Jetta isn't exactly a winning formula.

I agree, but I believe that the Neon will be faster on an autocross course
- 125ish horsepower over 110ish.  It could be primarily _who_ is driving
the Neons - I often wonder what would happen if BobT got back into his ES
winning Jetta from a few years ago, but OTOH, he sold it for a reason -
chances are, he did not think the car could compete with the Neons again.
He was going to take it to DSP, had even bought a Quaife for it, but
decided (IMHO, wisely) against it - for him, winning is the goal.  He
bought an AS M3, won AS.  This year, he put the M3 in CSP, and placed 6th,
which he was not happy with - the CSP BMW M3 was beaten by the Hondas, a
Miata(which won), an a 79 RX7.  If an M3, an E36 car prepped well and
driven by one of the all time best drivers in SoloII can't do it(this year,
98 is another season, I believe he _can_ do it), do you really think a
GTI/GLI 16v can?  I don't.



>Again I am only speaking from the handful of events I have seen them
>in, I could be wrong.

Hate to say it, as a VW devotee, but I think you are wrong:).  Neons are
fast.  A local competitor here has a DS Nissan 200SX SE-R, a fast car(WAY
faster than my DSP GTI in a straight line), and he is an accomplished
roadracer/autocrosser - he has a tough time beating another local guy in
his DS Neon.  The Neon owner has been autocrossing for a year only, does
not have all the tricks done to his car, is not the greatest driver - when
the Nissan owner drives the Neon, he goes 1-2 seconds faster than the car
owner - it is not the driver.

>
>I also looked at a Miata last year, and I can see how they do well as
>an Auto-X car, and if I had a budget that allowed me to own one for
>just that purpose I might consider one, but talk about a dog on the
>highway.  I test drove one with the R package (their sport handling
>etc) and I ran out of pull on the on-ramp at about 70mph.  Damn my 16v
>pulls harder at that range in 5th gear no less.

Miatas are disturbing.  They go _really_ fast for what they are.
Fortunately, they are not in a class with VWs, except CSP(with the M3,
Hondas from Hell).  Only 3 of the DSP cars this year beat all the Miatas -
two RX3s(now in CSP), and a Fiat X1/9.  The top ten BS Miatas would have
placed between 4th and 5th in DSP - top ten.  Miatas are slow in a straight
line, but handle amazingly well.

>But really the VW's are great all around cars, and I think they have
>just as much potential....Well maybe not an ASP Corrado;-).

The ASP Corrado is an oversight - IMHO, it would get readily reclassed to
CSP with the GTI VR6 if someone cared, but no one seems to.  I agree, the
VWs have a lot of potential, but it would take a GREAT driver in a 100%
sorted ES VW to even come close to the Neons/Saturn/Celicas - there's a
reason no one is driving them even more.  Could a VW pull it off in ES?
Maybe, IMHO.  Would I like to see someone try?  YES.

 But Neon,
>Saturn's,  we better kick their ass.  Hell, maybe the new H2O Beetle
>will surprise next year.  I'd race one :-)..
>
>-Paul
>Mission Statement - "Beat the Neon's"

The Saturn was a surprise this year, but it did do it.  Beating a well
driven, nationally competitive driver and car in a Neon will be hard - but
_possible_, I think.  For insight, when Tunnell won in his Jetta, he had a
2.25" front swaybar made by a motorhome swaybar company, rear shocks
revalved to be ultra stiff(mimicking in a sense huge springs), and
everything was sorted well.  It was an 87 8v Wolfsburg, no AC, no sunroof,
GTI mechanicals(apparently, about 6000 of these were made).  Every little
bit counts at that level, but the point is, the car, while a "Stock" car,
was dedicated to SCCA SoloII.  I still have not figured out how that
swaybar mounted to the car - 2.25" is not a typo - but supposedly, it
worked.  Amazing.  Forgot, in 95, before the M3, Bob campaigned a BMW 318
in DS and won that by .8 - surprised the hell out of everyone, but
supposedly, it was near rolling a lot of the time.  He is an amazing
driver, a driver whose skills are beyond learned.  We are lucky to have him
locally - watching him at local events is mindboggling, the car is SO
smooth, always doing something.  I rode in the M3 when it was in AS - it
felt like there was a rope tied to my head, pulling with incredible and
unchanging force in all directions - it never let up, I was back in my
seat, then laterally, braking....turning....accelerate - the forces were
smooth and flowing, not jerky - all smooth transitions, never
acclerate(stop)turn(stop)accelerate(stop)brake, but one fluid motion.  I've
ridden with some other National caliber drivers, and never felt anything
quite like that - it was unreal.  Then, he drove my car - same thing, and
three seconds faster than me.  Unbelieveable, but at that event, if you
subtracted 3 seconds from my best run, and compared it to the best BS
drivers' times(good indication of almost how fast Hoelscher would go), it
was a couple of seconds off, still.  My car has gotten much faster since
then, and maybe if I could get some of Bob's talent in me, the car could
give Hoelscher a reason to think a bit at Nationals 98.  Maybe.  We are
lucky, we have some of the best drivers around in Colorado - there is
always someone to look to for reference as to how fast the top DSP drivers
might be going.  I wish I could believe that an ES VW had what it takes - I
am not planning on buying a different brand anytime soon, but if I were
trying to win ES, I would not choose a VW.  IMHO, VWs fare best in DSP, and
even then, the Fiat and Leicester's pickup are a tough act to beat.  I've
been getting closer and closer to Matt's truck times, Kevin has beaten Matt
once or twice - a pickup truck is faster than most all of the VWs currently
out there.  By the end of next season, Kevin and I will be beating Matt, I
am sure, but not without a LOT of work and practice - he is an amazing
driver, the truck is the result of almost 20 years of development.
Occasionally, in fun runs, I'll beat Matt's times - yet to do it during
competition, but I know my car is capable, which is the costly part.  I'm
free to modify.  My car is 90ish percent prepared - still needs a prepped
engine, Quaife, lightening(more), maybe some suspension tuning, but it is
close to "done" for now.  My suspension might not be the optimum, but it is
capable of a lot more than I right now, and it is on its fourth or fifth
revision.  I can fully appreciate the desire to win in an underdog - that's
what I am trying to do, but IMHO, the VW is not the "right" car, no matter
what the class.  Maybe it could - if you love VWs and autocross, it is
worth a try, but it'll be a lot of work, especially as a driver in ES.
Best of luck, I'll be watching!


I.Mannix


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